Saturday, October 27, 2012
Historical Revision and You; or, Why America is Not a "Christian Nation"
With the presidential election heating up, both sides of the political spectrum are hunkered down in the trenches, regurgitating party lines and doing their best to convince independents and undecided to vote for one guy of the other. Now, I live in west Texas, one of the most conservative parts of the country. And one thing that I keep hearing repeated on radio and from people I encounter at college is that this is a "Christian nation", founded by Christian men on Christian values for Christians. Which is bullshit. Look people, it's okay to be proud of your faith, but it's quite another to go around trying to take credit for stuff that your religion had little or nothing to do with. Like founding Western Civilization of the scientific method. If the Constitution is based upon Christian values, please cite any and all biblical references within it and provide evidence that things like free speech, equality, and equal representation were pioneered only by Christians, and never existed before that religion did (hint; the Greeks invented democracy). If it is framed upon one of the chapters of law in Deuteronomy as some claim, please post the chapter and verse. Otherwise, shut the fuck up and stop trying to force your religious beliefs into state affairs. It's funny how if Muslims or Hindus tried that shit, Christians, like the rest of us, would be up in arms, and rightfully so. But when you guys try it, we're all commies and traitors if we contradict your historical revision that is actively dumbing down the population. Most of the Founders were Christians, yet the most influential ones were Freemasons and Deists. Most, if not all of them were united in the opinion that state and church were separate spheres that should not meet, and that everyone had the right to believe what they wanted without persecution of either the government or private interests. So stop trying to screw around with everyone else. And no, I'm not generalizing about all Christians, since a lot of them are thankfully smarter than this.
Saturday, October 20, 2012
BANNED LIKE A BOSS
A couple weeks ago, I went back to playing Dead Frontier, an online Zombie MMOG (Massively Multiplayer Online Game). Soon, I started posting on the forums there, which are pretty cool. There's a section for every topic, but it didn't take long for me to start frequenting "Serious Discussion", where everything from history to philosophy is discussed. I posted on several topics, and even started two threads. The first one was, "Was the Iraq War Justified?". That turned out pretty well, I think. The second one was, "Intelligent Design vs Young Earth Creationism". Long story short; a creationist bitch calling himself "I AM SCREWED" showed up and started trolling with idiotic logical fallacies. Here is his first post and my replies that were posted on the thread. This will be pretty long, so you may want to skip to the end.
"Wow this thread didn't start out a bit biased. lol."
Creationism: 6,000 years ago, a genocidal cosmic bigot created everything. Mankind was made of dust and magical breath. The fossil record was all laid down by a global flood roughly 4,000 years ago, even though there's no evidence in the rock record to back that up and this same flood, which supposedly wiped out mankind, had no impact on the ancient Chinese, Greeks, or Egyptians, or any other ancient culture of that time period.
Intelligent Design: an unfalsifiable being created everything. While the earth is old just like science has proven it to be, evolution does not explain the complexity of life, since everything must have an inspired origin. Just don't ask us who created the Creator, or we'll get pissy and throw logical fallacies at you.
"Anyway, I believe that everything and everyone was created by God. I just don't see how evolution would make any sense. If we had been evolving for millions/billions of years, how come humans, who supposedly adapted to this amazing body from some primordial goo how many years ago, haven't continued to adapt to their surroundings?"
We have and we are. But because we have no real competition, the adaptations occurring are slow, and won't have any real affects on us for thousands or even millions of years, depending upon environmental changes.
"People can still die of heat stroke, or freeze to death in not very extreme conditions. You would think that over that many millions and billions of years while we were growing into humans, we might have also adjusted to the elements. We had long enough."
You obviously don't understand how evolution works. This isn't X-Men. You can't magically adapt to every possible condition. In order for cockroaches and salamanders to adapt to cave environments, they lost all sense of sight and pigmentation, since you don't need camouflage in pitch black. Evolution is an adaptation to the environment, nothing more. And it doesn't happen in the space of a single generation, but in hundreds or thousands. The more pressure an organism has to adapt from predation or sexual pressures, the faster it does so. Or it goes extinct.
"Also, how come we don't have partial humans walking out of the ocean or jungles? Did the earth run out of the natural ingredients after it thought there were enough people?"
That doesn't even make sense.
"How come some evolved with the ability to produce eggs and one evolved being able to fertilize those eggs?"
Different environmental pressures. Different mutations. Take your pick.
"Evolution is a theory created for people who don't want to believe that there is a God or being powerful enough to create life from will, because people hate to feel small and helpless."
And here I was hoping that this thread would be stupidity-free. Let's cut the bullshit. Evolution is not a theory created by people who don't want to believe in god. Charles Darwin set it forth to explain biological diversity and the emergence of desirable traits that are passed down. Evolution has been proven. Insects and rodents have been observed in nature to adapt to powerful pesticides. In the 1990s, Professor Richard Lenski and his team of researchers conducted an experiment in which a strain of E. Coli mutated the ability to metabolize citrate, something that was unheard of at the time. And in an evolutionary world, we are small. You're the one who thinks some god created us for a divine purpose. Just because you don't know anything about evolution doesn't mean you get to make up shit about it. This is Serious Discussions, so leave the Ad Hominem attacks at the door. If you can't argue against something without invoking logical fallacies, don't argue at all.
That was the first exchange. Here's the rest;
"Evolution: There was nothing, then some gas floated into the nothing, then it all blew up and planets started popping up out of nowhere."
You were homeschooled, weren't you? That's the Big Bang theory, not evolution. So, FAIL.
"After these planets had all popped up, only one was able to magically produce life."
This is why creationism is stupid. First off, in order to form life as we know it, you need proteins and amino acids. No magic about it. Secondly, the universe in infinite, so for all we know, there could could be countless lifeforms in other galaxies. Some scientists also think that life started in other parts of our solar system, like Mars, but died out. Thirdly, you've manged to not only convey in one paragraph that you literally don't know shit about evolution, but that you also don't know anything about the Big Bang, or Abiogenesis. And on top of that, you manged to take three utterly distinct theories and mash them together. I don't whether to laugh or weep for the future.
"This unexplained living things suddenly began changing, and over millions and billions of years (during which other planets just didn't get lucky with life) they changed into all these different species. Even the ones who evolved in the same location. Some became frogs, some birds, some humans, some pigs. Isn't that cool."
Look up sympatric and allopatric speciation, then get back to me. M'kay?
"Seriously? You think evolution is the best theory? I could make up a better theory in about 5 minutes."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH!!!
"You also apparently haven't noticed that many scientific finds are disproving evolution timelines, such as mass bone yards, finding human and dinosaur footprints at the same level in rock, etc."
Mass bone yards don't disprove evolution. Ever hear of mass extinctions, disasters? And human tracks have never been found on the same level as dinosaur tracks. That's an old hoax, and it's pretty sad that people still fall for it.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/onheel.html
"Adapting to temperatures would be like X-Men, yet you want people to believe that we just adapted and evolved eyes, hearts, lungs, the digestive system, the reproductive system, etc. That seems pretty damn magical to me."
Coming from someone who invokes logical fallacies and doesn't seem to know anything about the theory he's disputing, this doesn't surprise me. Tell me, how is that any more "magical" than an uncaused omnipotent agent magically poofing everything into existence with magic words?
"Yeah actually it does. if humans evolved, than they would have kept being created over the years. You think there was just one period of time where humans popped up and then they stopped? That doesn't sound like evolving to me."
Life first originated in the Archean. Conditions on earth were different back then.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/precambrian/archean_hadean.php
After life formed and started changing, global conditions changed and the situation under which life came about no longer existed. That is probably why no new life formed after that period. However, primordial conditions can be found in certain lakes and parts of the ocean. Here, modern day Archeans can be found, bacteria capable of existing under conditions that no other form of life could survive. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/archaea/archaea.html
"Take my pick? I thought evolution was proven science, not a guessing game. Either they know what happened or not. I want proof."
Since this all happened millions of years ago, it can be difficult to determine through the fossil record exactly what catalyst sparked an adaption. Sometimes, it's environmental. Sometimes, it's due to predation by other species. Sometimes, it's sexual pressure. It's impossible to know every cause, though. All we can do is narrow it down to a list of possibilities. This doesn't mean that the entire theory is wrong because they can't always tell what happened, though. Creationists can't explain anything at all; their answer to every question is the same vague bullshit: "Goddidit".
"Charles Darwin. Because he says we all evolved, it must be true."
This is why creationists have reputations as cowardly, dishonest buffoons. Write two paragraphs explaining how evolution works, and they cherry-pick the first sentence, take it out of context, and use that as the basis of a straw-man argument.
In response to the rest; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041030215105.htm
Now, if you bother to post again, let's see you first respond to the entirety of my post regarding proof of evolution instead of the first sentence, and come up with a thoroughly-researched theory that is better than evolution via natural selection in five minutes flat. You're on the clock. And if you invoke any more fallacies, I'm flagging you.
"Which is one of the main attempts to explain how the world came into being, without which there would be no evolution argument, that is why it matters."
No. Not even close. There are no words to describe this kind of ignorance. For starters, the Big Bang theory wasn't set forth until 1927. Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace published their papers in 1858. Evolution doesn't depend upon the big bang any more than common descent depends upon abiogenesis.
"That conveniently mixed juuust right. Only in the right place...at the right time...and it happened millions of years ago so we don't have to explain how."
Look up the Miller experiment. Amino acids and proteins are the building blocks of DNA, and thus, life. And abiogenesis actually attempts to provide answers, instead of asserting that a magical sky man magically created everything, which is unfalsifiable and therefore nonsense.
"Key word is think. They have absolutely no idea really."
Actually, they've seen signs of water on Mars. Some scientists think microscopic organisms are responsible for methane hazes on the surface, but they won't know until we've explored it more thoroughly.
"Well in ways it does because they have found bones of animals they thought lived millions of years apart together. And the only people who call it a hoax are the ones who don't like how it contradicts their theory."
You sir, are an idiot. You keep repeating the same bullshit over and over, but you still haven't cited any sources whatsoever. Furthermore, the dino/human tracks are a fucking hoax. Of course you didn't even bother to read the link I posted, or cite a specific example, so now you've reverted to saying, "herp derp, the only people who use their brains and call a hoax a hoax are the ones who don't like how it contradicts their theory" instead of actually posting a semi-intelligent argument. Also, that was an Ad Hominem. I am reporting you.
"You would call any disagreement a logical fallacy, so I guess you got me there, but you didn't answer my question on how adapting to temperature was so hard compared to growing into entirely new creatures."
Because temperatures vary. And yes, organisms have adapted to temperatures. To a lesser extent, so have humans. Some races are more well adapted to cold or hot or tropical zones. They also tend to have immunity to local diseases.
"So what is happening with them now? Put it in an incubator and wait?"
Scientists have already bred new strains of them, I think, and are in the process of observing how each generation adapts.
"Exactly. You have no more idea than anyone else in other words."
Obviously, you have never heard of probability.
"And why does it bother you that someone would say "Goddidit"?"
Because that's not even an answer. I could say "The magical flying invisible pixie did it" and it would hold just as weight. Science looks for answers; religion just makes them up.
"You can't explain it, scientists can't explain it, and the Bible is full of much older theories of life that can't be disproved, yet they are all out the door?"
Science already has explained it. Your "logic" consists of this; "herp derp, if scientists can't say with 100% certainty that they know EVERY little thing that ever occurred in the history of life on earth, then the entire theory of evolution is worthless". Which is pretty typical of creationists in it's breathtaking ignorance of the scientific method and overall stupidity. At this point, the fossil record is more than sufficient to prove that life has evolved. And even without that, science could still make devastating arguments from microbiology, like that E. Coli experiment I mentioned. Which I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look up, did you?
"My theory is that humans and animals are part of an alien breeding program. This is a big farm. There are ancient sculptures of flying saucers and drawings of men in space suits to prove it. I dare anyone to prove me wrong."
No physical evidence, no citations, no research, no nothing. FAIL.
"As for your favorite word "fallacies", as with most evolutionists, you started the thread with the mindset that you're right and everyone else is stupid, so anything that you can't explain is a fallacy. There wasn't a shred of proof in the post, so no need to go over the "proof"."
Between the two of us, I'm the only one to post any evidence, which you attempted to dismiss out of hand with a retarded ad hominem. Also, I did NOT start this thread with the mindset that everyone else was stupid; Bertha and Doc Roe are intelligent people who don't agree with me 100%. The only stupid one here is you.
"This is a great example of how brainwashed people are nowadays. They eat the same shit over and over until it sounds good."
You have failed to make one good argument in this entire thread. Everything you've said translates to "duh, I don't know how this works, so it's wrong, dur". You're the one who has used logical fallacies like ad hominems, straw-men, and god of the gaps from your first post. You're the one who knows nothing about how evolution works, and yet, you actually think you know more than 150 years worth of scientists; you, who can't even tell the difference between physics and biology, per your conflation of BB and TOE. Don't even try to project your own stupidity onto me. The only brainwashed person here is the idiot who thinks ancient myths are superior to peer-reviewed facts.
"If you want to make an anti-all other views thread and have no one argue, I suggest finding a nice evolution forum. That way you can spew this crap and everyone will agree. I actually believe in adaptation of animals, but the levels of evolving that "science" suggests is just another way of admitting they have no idea."
You are so fucking stupid that I feel sorry for you. Again, saying that a theory is crap because there are gaps while completely avoiding the fact that most of it has been proven is to admit that you are stupid, ignorant, immature, and unfit to take part in serious conversation. And like the cowardly fraud you are, you've still avoided addressing the examples I posted earlier, which just proves that creationists have no moral or intellectual fiber. In short, you've wasted my time with your petulance.
"Last but not least, your sad attempt to paint people who disagree with you in a poor light is that they are ignorant and just don't understand evolution, therefore they are stupid and wrong. Well, you're just ignorant and don't understand the concept of God, so it's evolution. See how that works two ways?"
You are ignorant. If you knew enough about evolution to pass a freshman course in geology, you wouldn't have asked all the stupid questions you did. You also wouldn't be avoiding my arguments from earlier. And as both Vengeance and I have already pointed out, evolution does not rule out God. Only stupid, dishonest creationists fall for that line. But this is what brainwashed people are like.
"There's my post of "logical fallacies", have fun flagging since that is what you have to hide behind since you don't like opposition."
This from the coward who still hides from my previous arguments. Hey, if evolution is "crap", you should've been able to refute them. But you're a stupid kid, so I wasn't expecting much in the first place. Now I'll let Xaelath deal with your sorry hide.
So there is it is. I posted this last night, flagged I AM STUPID's bullshit, and when I logged it to the game this morning to try out my new chainsaw, there was a red box across the top of my screen saying this;
"Sorry Captain Rhodes, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
So I clicked on the thread to see what happened. The moderator was a Jesus freak. But first, I AM RETARDED's final reply.
"I'm not even going to bother quoting that novel of shit."
This from the retard whose standard of shit is anything he doesn't understand. Oh, the irony.
"I find it interesting though how when challenged all people like you can fall back on is "you're stupid", "you're ignorant", "you're a coward." Seriously? How mature.
Bitch, please. You see what I mean, people? Creationists are scum. They dismiss your arguments, argue from ignorance (which by itself is an admission of stupidity), use childish logical fallacies, ignore most of your posts, and then try to act like you're the one doing that and not them. They are truly the lowest of the low.
"I'm actually quite intelligent and on the honor roll in my college. From what I can tell, you're probably on a middle school debate team and trying to get practice. They should have taught you that repeating yourself over and over again and calling people names isn't the way to prove anything.
"
This is one of the biggest twats I've ever had the misfortune of wasting so much as one word on. How can you prove you're on the honor roll? Oh, that's right; you can't. Secondly, you have failed to post one citation for any of your claims. Thirdly, it's funny how you try to talk down to me and say I'm probably on a middle school debate team. Imbecile, you're too stupid to know what a logical fallacy is. You've used straw-men and ad hominems, but seemed unable to understand what that meant when I pointed it out. You can try to hide the truth all you want, but the fact is, you got your ass handed to you in this thread, and in a real live debate before a live audience, you would have been booed out the door after your first "argument". If one can drag the word through the muck by associating it with your rambling, ignorant, drivel. Oh, and idiot? You were the one repeating yourself over and over. I said something different in each post. All you did was continue to argue from ignorance, which is an admission of stupidity, no more, no less. Without citations. So you've already lost the debate, conceded that creationism is wrong and is reserved exclusively for morons like yourself, and that you are intellectually and ethically inferior to me.
"Do you really think posting links to random stories is proof?"
Because evidence backing up my arguments are just "random stories".
Dumbass, by not referencing any evidence, you have failed and conceded your inferiority. By attempting to dismiss evidence out of hand without even responding to it, you have proven yourself to be the spineless suck-ass pussy and egregious fraud that I always suspected you to be.
"There's scientists who believe creation, there's scientists that call it a farce. It all depends on who you read. If you rely on what others say for your beliefs I am truly sorry for you. It goes to show how shallow we as people have become when we have to look to peers and scientists to make us feel smart."
There is no depth that creationists won't sink to. Really. I showed that I actually understand evolution; the links were just evidence in case somebody asked me to back up my statements. But being a worthless, subhuman twat, I AM RETARDED actually tries to twist it around and make it look like I didn't know what was I was talking about and was basing everything upon other people's opinions. Despite the fact that anyone who is in college and doesn't know what evidence is or how it applies to debates is either mentally retarded or lying. He's probably a pimply-faced junior high student. Shallow? You pathetic troll, you argue on the level of a third-grader, and even that is being generous. And BTW, only pseudo-scientists endorse creationism. That is obvious to non-brainwashed people. And non-retarded people.
"The only thing I have seen you post, in a nutshell is this: "Evolution is the only possible theory, because these scientists say so. oh and you're stupid because you think it's wrong."'
No, fuckwit, I've been saying that evolution is a fact because it's been proven. It has evidence, none of which you have even attempted to refute, being the dishonest coward you are.And where you are concerned, I've been saying that you are stupid because you not don't know anything about evolution, but refuse to educate yourself on that subject. Willful ignorance is the worst kind of ignorance; it's even worse than honest stupidity. And you've put zero effort into this debate. You run and hide from my arguments, responding only to individual sentences, and you ignore my links, which not only demeans the entire forum and everyone on it, but also exposes you as a sad, childish little attention troll. If there had been any actual moderation, you would have been warned, and banned if you continued to post garbage on the same developmental level as a five year-old.
"You want facts, I want facts. I can't prove creation, you (or anyone else) can't prove evolution."
More bullshit. Moron, before you can say that evolution can't be proven, you have to grow a pair, and go try to refute the evidence for yourself. Which you have steadfastly avoided, like the coward you are.That's a Tu Quoque fallacy and a false dichotomy all in one. Yeah I know, such big, confusing words.
"Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. In an older and closely related meaning (found, for example, in Aristotle), "science" refers to the body of reliable knowledge itself, of the type that can be logically and rationally explained."
And your point here is...?
"Therefore, evolution isn't science. There is no way to test what happened in the past, you yourself have said that. There is no reliable knowledge supporting the claims, just a pile of maybes and what ifs. How many times have they claimed to have found the "missing link" and been found to be hoaxes?"
First off, fucktard, I did not say that there is "no way to test what happened in the past". You, sir, are a fucking liar of the worst sort and you are utterly beneath contempt. If there is no way to test what happened in the past, how do you explain geologists ability to predict where oil is? To predict where they'll find fossils? Magic? I wouldn't put it past you. And of course, you avoid isotopic dating. As for the rest of you drivel, it's what I've come to expect from creation-tards. More "herp derp, if science makes a mistake, it's not science, herp derp". Go die in a fire.
"Have fun playing scientist in candy land."
Have fun being a lying piece of shit who loses every debate and just can't stand the truth about himself. Maybe if you're lucky, Ken Ham will hire you to work at hisdismal roadside attraction Creation "Museum".
The moderator was one "Buford83". He banned me from the forum for three days. The charge; flaming.
"You can't reason with some people, Doc. With everything as perfect as it is around us, with how life is in general and all of the complexities and improbabilities that come along with it, I don't understand how people don't believe in God, but there's no reason to debate with some of these people. Debates like this on an internet board rarely change anything and I've already dealt with enough ignorant, hot-headed assholes on Dead Frontier."
Look at this. I and a couple other posters already explained complexity, and he just brushes right over it like the cowardly fraud he is. Incredible. And bitch, flaming is defined on the Internet as insulting someone for no reason. I did not flame I.A.S. He earned his titles by arguing from logical fallacies over and over, without saying anything new and essentially trolling the thread, which is against the rules. But you just flamed me. Nice way to lead by example, you weak-minded fuck-brain.
"Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - Romans 1:20"
Circular logic. Translation; you are retarded, biased, and worthless, and are a disgrace to forum moderators everywhere. I win. Eat my shit, creationist losers. And the best part? I AM SCREWED didn't get banned. So you can violate the rules and troll on Buford Thundertwunt's watch so long as you're on his side.
THINGS I LEARNED.
I didn't really learn anything from this debacle that I didn't already know, but this experience has reinforced that knowledge with a vengeance.
>Creationists will sink to every level possible. They are some of the worst wastes of carbon and oxygen to ever soil the ground with their footsteps.
>Buford83 is a biased hypocrite who doesn't deserve to be a mod.
>Both Buford and I AM SCREWED have admitted that they're inferior to me, and have conceded the debate.
>People who ignore your arguments, twist your words out of context, argue exclusively from ignorance and other fallacies, and project their own behavior onto you, deserve to have their legs broken.
>Evolution is still a fact, and only wretched religious morons deny that.
>Tu quoque is not a valid comeback, you dumb shits. Neither are any of these, which you kept using.
>Pretty much all creationists are thundertwunts.
"Wow this thread didn't start out a bit biased. lol."
Creationism: 6,000 years ago, a genocidal cosmic bigot created everything. Mankind was made of dust and magical breath. The fossil record was all laid down by a global flood roughly 4,000 years ago, even though there's no evidence in the rock record to back that up and this same flood, which supposedly wiped out mankind, had no impact on the ancient Chinese, Greeks, or Egyptians, or any other ancient culture of that time period.
Intelligent Design: an unfalsifiable being created everything. While the earth is old just like science has proven it to be, evolution does not explain the complexity of life, since everything must have an inspired origin. Just don't ask us who created the Creator, or we'll get pissy and throw logical fallacies at you.
"Anyway, I believe that everything and everyone was created by God. I just don't see how evolution would make any sense. If we had been evolving for millions/billions of years, how come humans, who supposedly adapted to this amazing body from some primordial goo how many years ago, haven't continued to adapt to their surroundings?"
We have and we are. But because we have no real competition, the adaptations occurring are slow, and won't have any real affects on us for thousands or even millions of years, depending upon environmental changes.
"People can still die of heat stroke, or freeze to death in not very extreme conditions. You would think that over that many millions and billions of years while we were growing into humans, we might have also adjusted to the elements. We had long enough."
You obviously don't understand how evolution works. This isn't X-Men. You can't magically adapt to every possible condition. In order for cockroaches and salamanders to adapt to cave environments, they lost all sense of sight and pigmentation, since you don't need camouflage in pitch black. Evolution is an adaptation to the environment, nothing more. And it doesn't happen in the space of a single generation, but in hundreds or thousands. The more pressure an organism has to adapt from predation or sexual pressures, the faster it does so. Or it goes extinct.
"Also, how come we don't have partial humans walking out of the ocean or jungles? Did the earth run out of the natural ingredients after it thought there were enough people?"
That doesn't even make sense.
"How come some evolved with the ability to produce eggs and one evolved being able to fertilize those eggs?"
Different environmental pressures. Different mutations. Take your pick.
"Evolution is a theory created for people who don't want to believe that there is a God or being powerful enough to create life from will, because people hate to feel small and helpless."
And here I was hoping that this thread would be stupidity-free. Let's cut the bullshit. Evolution is not a theory created by people who don't want to believe in god. Charles Darwin set it forth to explain biological diversity and the emergence of desirable traits that are passed down. Evolution has been proven. Insects and rodents have been observed in nature to adapt to powerful pesticides. In the 1990s, Professor Richard Lenski and his team of researchers conducted an experiment in which a strain of E. Coli mutated the ability to metabolize citrate, something that was unheard of at the time. And in an evolutionary world, we are small. You're the one who thinks some god created us for a divine purpose. Just because you don't know anything about evolution doesn't mean you get to make up shit about it. This is Serious Discussions, so leave the Ad Hominem attacks at the door. If you can't argue against something without invoking logical fallacies, don't argue at all.
That was the first exchange. Here's the rest;
"Evolution: There was nothing, then some gas floated into the nothing, then it all blew up and planets started popping up out of nowhere."
You were homeschooled, weren't you? That's the Big Bang theory, not evolution. So, FAIL.
"After these planets had all popped up, only one was able to magically produce life."
This is why creationism is stupid. First off, in order to form life as we know it, you need proteins and amino acids. No magic about it. Secondly, the universe in infinite, so for all we know, there could could be countless lifeforms in other galaxies. Some scientists also think that life started in other parts of our solar system, like Mars, but died out. Thirdly, you've manged to not only convey in one paragraph that you literally don't know shit about evolution, but that you also don't know anything about the Big Bang, or Abiogenesis. And on top of that, you manged to take three utterly distinct theories and mash them together. I don't whether to laugh or weep for the future.
"This unexplained living things suddenly began changing, and over millions and billions of years (during which other planets just didn't get lucky with life) they changed into all these different species. Even the ones who evolved in the same location. Some became frogs, some birds, some humans, some pigs. Isn't that cool."
Look up sympatric and allopatric speciation, then get back to me. M'kay?
"Seriously? You think evolution is the best theory? I could make up a better theory in about 5 minutes."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH!!!
"You also apparently haven't noticed that many scientific finds are disproving evolution timelines, such as mass bone yards, finding human and dinosaur footprints at the same level in rock, etc."
Mass bone yards don't disprove evolution. Ever hear of mass extinctions, disasters? And human tracks have never been found on the same level as dinosaur tracks. That's an old hoax, and it's pretty sad that people still fall for it.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/onheel.html
"Adapting to temperatures would be like X-Men, yet you want people to believe that we just adapted and evolved eyes, hearts, lungs, the digestive system, the reproductive system, etc. That seems pretty damn magical to me."
Coming from someone who invokes logical fallacies and doesn't seem to know anything about the theory he's disputing, this doesn't surprise me. Tell me, how is that any more "magical" than an uncaused omnipotent agent magically poofing everything into existence with magic words?
"Yeah actually it does. if humans evolved, than they would have kept being created over the years. You think there was just one period of time where humans popped up and then they stopped? That doesn't sound like evolving to me."
Life first originated in the Archean. Conditions on earth were different back then.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/precambrian/archean_hadean.php
After life formed and started changing, global conditions changed and the situation under which life came about no longer existed. That is probably why no new life formed after that period. However, primordial conditions can be found in certain lakes and parts of the ocean. Here, modern day Archeans can be found, bacteria capable of existing under conditions that no other form of life could survive. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/archaea/archaea.html
"Take my pick? I thought evolution was proven science, not a guessing game. Either they know what happened or not. I want proof."
Since this all happened millions of years ago, it can be difficult to determine through the fossil record exactly what catalyst sparked an adaption. Sometimes, it's environmental. Sometimes, it's due to predation by other species. Sometimes, it's sexual pressure. It's impossible to know every cause, though. All we can do is narrow it down to a list of possibilities. This doesn't mean that the entire theory is wrong because they can't always tell what happened, though. Creationists can't explain anything at all; their answer to every question is the same vague bullshit: "Goddidit".
"Charles Darwin. Because he says we all evolved, it must be true."
This is why creationists have reputations as cowardly, dishonest buffoons. Write two paragraphs explaining how evolution works, and they cherry-pick the first sentence, take it out of context, and use that as the basis of a straw-man argument.
In response to the rest; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041030215105.htm
Now, if you bother to post again, let's see you first respond to the entirety of my post regarding proof of evolution instead of the first sentence, and come up with a thoroughly-researched theory that is better than evolution via natural selection in five minutes flat. You're on the clock. And if you invoke any more fallacies, I'm flagging you.
"Which is one of the main attempts to explain how the world came into being, without which there would be no evolution argument, that is why it matters."
No. Not even close. There are no words to describe this kind of ignorance. For starters, the Big Bang theory wasn't set forth until 1927. Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace published their papers in 1858. Evolution doesn't depend upon the big bang any more than common descent depends upon abiogenesis.
"That conveniently mixed juuust right. Only in the right place...at the right time...and it happened millions of years ago so we don't have to explain how."
Look up the Miller experiment. Amino acids and proteins are the building blocks of DNA, and thus, life. And abiogenesis actually attempts to provide answers, instead of asserting that a magical sky man magically created everything, which is unfalsifiable and therefore nonsense.
"Key word is think. They have absolutely no idea really."
Actually, they've seen signs of water on Mars. Some scientists think microscopic organisms are responsible for methane hazes on the surface, but they won't know until we've explored it more thoroughly.
"Well in ways it does because they have found bones of animals they thought lived millions of years apart together. And the only people who call it a hoax are the ones who don't like how it contradicts their theory."
You sir, are an idiot. You keep repeating the same bullshit over and over, but you still haven't cited any sources whatsoever. Furthermore, the dino/human tracks are a fucking hoax. Of course you didn't even bother to read the link I posted, or cite a specific example, so now you've reverted to saying, "herp derp, the only people who use their brains and call a hoax a hoax are the ones who don't like how it contradicts their theory" instead of actually posting a semi-intelligent argument. Also, that was an Ad Hominem. I am reporting you.
"You would call any disagreement a logical fallacy, so I guess you got me there, but you didn't answer my question on how adapting to temperature was so hard compared to growing into entirely new creatures."
Because temperatures vary. And yes, organisms have adapted to temperatures. To a lesser extent, so have humans. Some races are more well adapted to cold or hot or tropical zones. They also tend to have immunity to local diseases.
"So what is happening with them now? Put it in an incubator and wait?"
Scientists have already bred new strains of them, I think, and are in the process of observing how each generation adapts.
"Exactly. You have no more idea than anyone else in other words."
Obviously, you have never heard of probability.
"And why does it bother you that someone would say "Goddidit"?"
Because that's not even an answer. I could say "The magical flying invisible pixie did it" and it would hold just as weight. Science looks for answers; religion just makes them up.
"You can't explain it, scientists can't explain it, and the Bible is full of much older theories of life that can't be disproved, yet they are all out the door?"
Science already has explained it. Your "logic" consists of this; "herp derp, if scientists can't say with 100% certainty that they know EVERY little thing that ever occurred in the history of life on earth, then the entire theory of evolution is worthless". Which is pretty typical of creationists in it's breathtaking ignorance of the scientific method and overall stupidity. At this point, the fossil record is more than sufficient to prove that life has evolved. And even without that, science could still make devastating arguments from microbiology, like that E. Coli experiment I mentioned. Which I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look up, did you?
"My theory is that humans and animals are part of an alien breeding program. This is a big farm. There are ancient sculptures of flying saucers and drawings of men in space suits to prove it. I dare anyone to prove me wrong."
No physical evidence, no citations, no research, no nothing. FAIL.
"As for your favorite word "fallacies", as with most evolutionists, you started the thread with the mindset that you're right and everyone else is stupid, so anything that you can't explain is a fallacy. There wasn't a shred of proof in the post, so no need to go over the "proof"."
Between the two of us, I'm the only one to post any evidence, which you attempted to dismiss out of hand with a retarded ad hominem. Also, I did NOT start this thread with the mindset that everyone else was stupid; Bertha and Doc Roe are intelligent people who don't agree with me 100%. The only stupid one here is you.
"This is a great example of how brainwashed people are nowadays. They eat the same shit over and over until it sounds good."
You have failed to make one good argument in this entire thread. Everything you've said translates to "duh, I don't know how this works, so it's wrong, dur". You're the one who has used logical fallacies like ad hominems, straw-men, and god of the gaps from your first post. You're the one who knows nothing about how evolution works, and yet, you actually think you know more than 150 years worth of scientists; you, who can't even tell the difference between physics and biology, per your conflation of BB and TOE. Don't even try to project your own stupidity onto me. The only brainwashed person here is the idiot who thinks ancient myths are superior to peer-reviewed facts.
"If you want to make an anti-all other views thread and have no one argue, I suggest finding a nice evolution forum. That way you can spew this crap and everyone will agree. I actually believe in adaptation of animals, but the levels of evolving that "science" suggests is just another way of admitting they have no idea."
You are so fucking stupid that I feel sorry for you. Again, saying that a theory is crap because there are gaps while completely avoiding the fact that most of it has been proven is to admit that you are stupid, ignorant, immature, and unfit to take part in serious conversation. And like the cowardly fraud you are, you've still avoided addressing the examples I posted earlier, which just proves that creationists have no moral or intellectual fiber. In short, you've wasted my time with your petulance.
"Last but not least, your sad attempt to paint people who disagree with you in a poor light is that they are ignorant and just don't understand evolution, therefore they are stupid and wrong. Well, you're just ignorant and don't understand the concept of God, so it's evolution. See how that works two ways?"
You are ignorant. If you knew enough about evolution to pass a freshman course in geology, you wouldn't have asked all the stupid questions you did. You also wouldn't be avoiding my arguments from earlier. And as both Vengeance and I have already pointed out, evolution does not rule out God. Only stupid, dishonest creationists fall for that line. But this is what brainwashed people are like.
"There's my post of "logical fallacies", have fun flagging since that is what you have to hide behind since you don't like opposition."
This from the coward who still hides from my previous arguments. Hey, if evolution is "crap", you should've been able to refute them. But you're a stupid kid, so I wasn't expecting much in the first place. Now I'll let Xaelath deal with your sorry hide.
So there is it is. I posted this last night, flagged I AM STUPID's bullshit, and when I logged it to the game this morning to try out my new chainsaw, there was a red box across the top of my screen saying this;
"Sorry Captain Rhodes, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
Flaming - 3 Days
"I'm not even going to bother quoting that novel of shit."
This from the retard whose standard of shit is anything he doesn't understand. Oh, the irony.
"I find it interesting though how when challenged all people like you can fall back on is "you're stupid", "you're ignorant", "you're a coward." Seriously? How mature.
Bitch, please. You see what I mean, people? Creationists are scum. They dismiss your arguments, argue from ignorance (which by itself is an admission of stupidity), use childish logical fallacies, ignore most of your posts, and then try to act like you're the one doing that and not them. They are truly the lowest of the low.
"I'm actually quite intelligent and on the honor roll in my college. From what I can tell, you're probably on a middle school debate team and trying to get practice. They should have taught you that repeating yourself over and over again and calling people names isn't the way to prove anything.
"This is one of the biggest twats I've ever had the misfortune of wasting so much as one word on. How can you prove you're on the honor roll? Oh, that's right; you can't. Secondly, you have failed to post one citation for any of your claims. Thirdly, it's funny how you try to talk down to me and say I'm probably on a middle school debate team. Imbecile, you're too stupid to know what a logical fallacy is. You've used straw-men and ad hominems, but seemed unable to understand what that meant when I pointed it out. You can try to hide the truth all you want, but the fact is, you got your ass handed to you in this thread, and in a real live debate before a live audience, you would have been booed out the door after your first "argument". If one can drag the word through the muck by associating it with your rambling, ignorant, drivel. Oh, and idiot? You were the one repeating yourself over and over. I said something different in each post. All you did was continue to argue from ignorance, which is an admission of stupidity, no more, no less. Without citations. So you've already lost the debate, conceded that creationism is wrong and is reserved exclusively for morons like yourself, and that you are intellectually and ethically inferior to me.
"Do you really think posting links to random stories is proof?"
Because evidence backing up my arguments are just "random stories".
Dumbass, by not referencing any evidence, you have failed and conceded your inferiority. By attempting to dismiss evidence out of hand without even responding to it, you have proven yourself to be the spineless suck-ass pussy and egregious fraud that I always suspected you to be.
"There's scientists who believe creation, there's scientists that call it a farce. It all depends on who you read. If you rely on what others say for your beliefs I am truly sorry for you. It goes to show how shallow we as people have become when we have to look to peers and scientists to make us feel smart."
There is no depth that creationists won't sink to. Really. I showed that I actually understand evolution; the links were just evidence in case somebody asked me to back up my statements. But being a worthless, subhuman twat, I AM RETARDED actually tries to twist it around and make it look like I didn't know what was I was talking about and was basing everything upon other people's opinions. Despite the fact that anyone who is in college and doesn't know what evidence is or how it applies to debates is either mentally retarded or lying. He's probably a pimply-faced junior high student. Shallow? You pathetic troll, you argue on the level of a third-grader, and even that is being generous. And BTW, only pseudo-scientists endorse creationism. That is obvious to non-brainwashed people. And non-retarded people.
"The only thing I have seen you post, in a nutshell is this: "Evolution is the only possible theory, because these scientists say so. oh and you're stupid because you think it's wrong."'
No, fuckwit, I've been saying that evolution is a fact because it's been proven. It has evidence, none of which you have even attempted to refute, being the dishonest coward you are.And where you are concerned, I've been saying that you are stupid because you not don't know anything about evolution, but refuse to educate yourself on that subject. Willful ignorance is the worst kind of ignorance; it's even worse than honest stupidity. And you've put zero effort into this debate. You run and hide from my arguments, responding only to individual sentences, and you ignore my links, which not only demeans the entire forum and everyone on it, but also exposes you as a sad, childish little attention troll. If there had been any actual moderation, you would have been warned, and banned if you continued to post garbage on the same developmental level as a five year-old.
"You want facts, I want facts. I can't prove creation, you (or anyone else) can't prove evolution."
More bullshit. Moron, before you can say that evolution can't be proven, you have to grow a pair, and go try to refute the evidence for yourself. Which you have steadfastly avoided, like the coward you are.That's a Tu Quoque fallacy and a false dichotomy all in one. Yeah I know, such big, confusing words.
"Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. In an older and closely related meaning (found, for example, in Aristotle), "science" refers to the body of reliable knowledge itself, of the type that can be logically and rationally explained."
And your point here is...?
"Therefore, evolution isn't science. There is no way to test what happened in the past, you yourself have said that. There is no reliable knowledge supporting the claims, just a pile of maybes and what ifs. How many times have they claimed to have found the "missing link" and been found to be hoaxes?"
First off, fucktard, I did not say that there is "no way to test what happened in the past". You, sir, are a fucking liar of the worst sort and you are utterly beneath contempt. If there is no way to test what happened in the past, how do you explain geologists ability to predict where oil is? To predict where they'll find fossils? Magic? I wouldn't put it past you. And of course, you avoid isotopic dating. As for the rest of you drivel, it's what I've come to expect from creation-tards. More "herp derp, if science makes a mistake, it's not science, herp derp". Go die in a fire.
"Have fun playing scientist in candy land."
Have fun being a lying piece of shit who loses every debate and just can't stand the truth about himself. Maybe if you're lucky, Ken Ham will hire you to work at his
The moderator was one "Buford83". He banned me from the forum for three days. The charge; flaming.
"You can't reason with some people, Doc. With everything as perfect as it is around us, with how life is in general and all of the complexities and improbabilities that come along with it, I don't understand how people don't believe in God, but there's no reason to debate with some of these people. Debates like this on an internet board rarely change anything and I've already dealt with enough ignorant, hot-headed assholes on Dead Frontier."
Look at this. I and a couple other posters already explained complexity, and he just brushes right over it like the cowardly fraud he is. Incredible. And bitch, flaming is defined on the Internet as insulting someone for no reason. I did not flame I.A.S. He earned his titles by arguing from logical fallacies over and over, without saying anything new and essentially trolling the thread, which is against the rules. But you just flamed me. Nice way to lead by example, you weak-minded fuck-brain.
"Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." - Romans 1:20"
Circular logic. Translation; you are retarded, biased, and worthless, and are a disgrace to forum moderators everywhere. I win. Eat my shit, creationist losers. And the best part? I AM SCREWED didn't get banned. So you can violate the rules and troll on Buford Thundertwunt's watch so long as you're on his side.
THINGS I LEARNED.
I didn't really learn anything from this debacle that I didn't already know, but this experience has reinforced that knowledge with a vengeance.
>Creationists will sink to every level possible. They are some of the worst wastes of carbon and oxygen to ever soil the ground with their footsteps.
>Buford83 is a biased hypocrite who doesn't deserve to be a mod.
>Both Buford and I AM SCREWED have admitted that they're inferior to me, and have conceded the debate.
>People who ignore your arguments, twist your words out of context, argue exclusively from ignorance and other fallacies, and project their own behavior onto you, deserve to have their legs broken.
>Evolution is still a fact, and only wretched religious morons deny that.
>Tu quoque is not a valid comeback, you dumb shits. Neither are any of these, which you kept using.
>Pretty much all creationists are thundertwunts.
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